遇見Systema: Vladimir訪談譯文

譯註：
這篇訪談讓我們看到“大師也有小時候"，即使我們眼中大師們早已身手如神，但他們仍努力突破自我不斷前進，為我們指出追尋的方向。除了自己沒人能阻止我們茁壯，希望同好們珍惜練習的時光。
個人英文能力有限，但終究在Systema領域下過些功夫，嚐試把Vladimir字面下的意思也譯出來卻不免望文生義，故保留原文方便直接對照，錯漏處還請大家不吝賜教。

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Encounter with SystemaInterview with Vladimir Vasiliev recorded at the seminar in Tokyo, hosted by Andy Cefai and Ryo Onishipublished by Hiden Budo & Bujitsu magazinetranslated from Japanese by Taka Kitagawa

遇見Systema專訪Vladimir Vasiliev於東京講習會（由Andy Cefai和大西亮一主辦）原刊載“秘傳”雜誌，北川貴英將日文譯英文

Question-When did you encounter Systema for the first time?
Vladimir Vasiliev (VV): It's in the early 80s that I met Mikhail Ryabko.

問：您是什麼時候知道Systema的?
Vladimir Vasiliev (VV): 80年代初遇到Mikhail Ryabko時。

-You were serving in the military at that time. What kind of martial arts were you training in?
VV: I was mostly training for a close quarter combat. Those martial arts have good points but Mikhail showed me a completely different approach.

問：當時您正在軍隊服役，有接受那些武術訓練？
VV: 大部份是CQC(貼身近戰）訓練，這些訓練很不錯但Mikhail讓我見識到全然不同的一面。

-Do you remember your first impression of Mikhail?
VV: I watched him with a skeptical eye. He didn't look like a fighter.

問：您對Mikhail的第一印象怎樣?
VV: 我看著他有些懷疑，他不太像會打鬥的人。

-What made you realize that he is so special?
VV: The things he showed were very special. I was wondering if he is an ordinary human being, how can he show such amazing things? He is just a good person. Nothing spectacular like a mountain hermit or a bearded wizard from the movies.

問：什麼事讓您明白他與眾不同？
VV: 他表現的就是與眾不同，我在想他到底是不是個凡人，他怎能辦到那些讓人驚奇的事？他不過是個普通人，一點也不像世外高人或在電影上看到的大胡子巫師。

- Did you start learning at that point?
VV: Mikhail didn't introduce himself as a "teacher". So we were just training together. I didn't feel that I was a student of Mikhail. Of course we can say that we are students of Mikhail but he never presented himself as a teacher.

問：當時您就開始跟著學習了嗎？
VV: Mikhail對我並沒有以“老師”自居，當時我們只是一起練習，那時我也不覺得自己是他的學生。當然可以說我們是Mikhail的學生，但他從不稱自己是老師。

-I thought you were training with Mikhail very closely. Did you take many classes every week?
VV: We started as being friends in our city of Tver, Mikhail would come to my home for food and drinks and to talk. He is a master but interacts as an ordinary person. Through such a relationship, I gained respect and friendship for him even outside of the training. At that time I took about 3 classes per week 2 or 3 hours each. And we’ve been friends for over 30 years now.

問：我想您是Mikhail非常親近的學生，您每周去很多堂課嗎？
VV: 我們開始就像朋友一般，在我待的城市Tver，Mikhail會來我家吃飯喝酒聊天，是個作風平凡的大師。由於這樣，課堂之外我仍敬重他並珍惜我們的友誼。當時我差不多一周上三次課每回二三個小時，如今我們已是30多年的朋友了。

-Did you get some particular word of advice from Mikhail in those early days?

VV: His advice was "Relax and don't rush".

問：那段日子Mikhail有針對您給過什麼建議嗎?

VV:他的建議是“輕松點別太急”。 

-Did you find it difficult to study movement rather than technique?

VV: Usually in martial arts practice, we agree on the speed of the attack and which weapon or part of the body the partner will use, but Mikhail would not prearrange anything. It means any unexpected attack would be OK. Any speed, any direction, a kick or a punch, it is all fine. This is the thing that surprised me more than anything else. Initially it was very difficult to adjust to such a freedom. The boxing that I did before was not like that.

問：您覺得學習如何“舉手投足”(movement)比練習“招式技巧”困難嗎?

VV:一般武術練習時我們通常會和同伴先說好攻擊的速度，使用身體什麼部位或武器進行， 但Mikhail不會事先套好，也就是說用偷襲的也行，任何速度，方位，要踢要打都無所謂。光是這一點完全出乎我的意料之外。一開始對這種全然自由沒有預設的情況很難調適，之前練習拳擊時也不會這樣作。

-Normally we train with some kind of pattern. Did you learn such a freedom by osmosis?

VV: The more I know, the more of my mistakes I find, I felt that I lost the illusions about my skill. Now too, I see my mistakes and rather than getting discouraged, just try to work on them.

問：一般我們訓練時會用上一些攻防模式（pattern)，而您學習的是這種徹頭徹尾的自由? VV:理解愈深入愈發現自己有那麼多錯誤，當時覺得對自己對原有技巧失去樂觀的期待，現在感覺也是如此，但不再沮喪只會設法改正那些錯誤。

-I feel that you are talking very high level. How many years did you train with Mikhail?

VV: About a year and a half. Of course sometimes I couldn't go to the training. I was not a good student.

問：我覺得您剛才解說的境界非常高。　您跟隨Mikhail訓練了多少年？ 

VV: 差不多一年半。當然有時候也會缺席，我不是個好學生。

-In the 90s you moved to Toronto, Canada.

VV: Yes.

問：90年代您移居去了加拿大，多倫多?VV: 是 

-After your coming to Canada, you did not see Mikhail for a few years. Did you feel he had changed when you met him after this long interval?

VV: We talked on the phone when I moved and saw each other again 8 years later. Mikhail had changed a lot.

問：來到加拿大後您有好些年沒見到Mikhail, 隔了那麼長時間再見到他時您覺得Mikhail有改變嗎?

VV:我移居時打過電話給他，之後再次碰面已是八年之後了。Mikhail變得非常多。 

-How did he change?

VV: His movements were even more short and simple. He had more variety thanin the past. He also became more spiritual and gained a lot of strength from there.

問：怎樣的改變?

VV: 他的動作變得更小更精簡比以往更加不可捉摸。他也更朝向精神層面修為並且從中得到更大的力量。 

-I believe that the spirituality of Systema is Russian Orthodox Faith. Is that a part that is absolutely imperative?

VV: Systema has its roots in the Faith but I don’t think it is absolutely imperative. Learning Systema might be within the process of being a good human being. This kind of topic is difficult to discuss because each person has his own reaction.

問：我相信這種精神修為是俄羅斯東正教的信仰，那是絕對不可缺的部份嗎?

VV: Systema有個信仰的根源但我不認為一定得信俄羅斯正教不可，學習Systema差不多成為一個好人的過程。這個問題很難一概而論，每個人都有自己的路要走。

-You control multiple attackers very easily in this seminar. Do you expect the next attacker when you are controlling the first one?

VV: I'm looking out for the next attacker for sure but I'm not waiting for him. I'm trying to feel. Actually it is possible to control them with looking. I know how they are going to react to my movements and I position myself accordingly.

問：您在講習會上輕易地同時控制好幾名攻擊者，您在控制前一個時就已經等著處理下一個嗎?

VV: 我當然會對陸續前來的攻擊者保持警戒但並非杵在那兒等著，而是去感覺他們的存在。事實上用視線掌控住他們是可能的，只要清楚他們對我的作為有何反應就可以據此調整我的迎戰姿態。

-I understand because of your very smooth footwork, you control multiple angle attacks without moving from the spot. If you need to move, you move back and come around behind. Then how can you develop the "Feeling"?

VV: It is difficult to explain but the more flexibility and comfort you have in yourbody, the more you begin to feel.

問：我明白那是由於您有非常流暢的步法，而且毋須刻意由某處移動就能同時應付數個方位來襲的攻擊，若您非動不可，退開後馬上又回到差不多的位置（閃躲動作不大）。您是怎麼麼發展出這種“知覺”的?

VV:一言難盡不過就是保持身體的進行各種動作的可能性同時讓自己感到舒適（不要讓自己窘迫），愈處在這種狀態下你的知覺就愈靈敏。 

-Can you find or invent movements yourself?

VV: We can practice our own free movements in the training. The important thing to remember is to find out your own movement without imitating someone. Everybody has their own special ways to move.

問： 您能找到或創造自己的動作?

VV: 訓練中我們可自由練習專屬自己的動作。重要的是找到自己的方式不要模仿某人。每個人都有獨特的方法來動作。 

-Again, the key is to keep moving, right?

VV: That's what I believe. We forget the technique when the fear comes. Efficient thinking gets shut down by the fear.

問：再確認一次，關鍵是持續移動，對吧?

VV： 我是這麼認為。處在恐懼下我們施展不出技巧也會讓腦子一片空白。 

-What is your current challenge? I can't find any defects in your work.

VV: (Shaking his head horizontally) I think that I have too much tension. The more I understand Systema, the more I find deep tension. I also have too much play.

問：您目前有什麼要繼續努力的? 我看不出您有何缺點。

VV:(搖頭）我認為自己“緊張”（Tension)太多。我愈深入Systema, 愈能發現內在的“緊張”（Tension)。而且我的花樣太多了。 

-Too much play?

VV: I mean that I move too much. If you watch Mikhail, you can understand what I'm saying. Mikhail is the best for me.

問：花樣太多?

VV: 我的意思是我動得太多。你拿Mikhail來對照就知道我指的是什麼。Mikahail對我而言是最好的。 

-Frankly speaking, the movement of Mikhail is too high to understand.

VV: Exactly. I would like to learn that.

問：坦白說，Mikhail的動作方式境界高到讓我無法理解。

VV: 沒錯，我就是以此為目標。

-Andy Cefai, a Systema instructor and head of Systema Japan. Andy, go ahead.

Andy (A): You advised me "Look more inside of yourself". For instance you told me "When somebody is trying to punch you, you shouldn't look at the opponent or analyze his movement. At that time you should look inside of yourself. Then you know yourself and you move based on yourself. You can break new ground with such an approach." Could you give me more details on that?

VV: When you look at the opponent during practice, it means you want to show something as an instructor. The more you try to show, the more fragile you are. Instead, try to work while looking inside of yourself. Then you can bring a positive change for everybody.

Andy Cefai 是Systema Japan的發起人和指導員。他接著問。

Andy(A): 你建議我“多觀照自我”。像你跟我說過 “若有個人揮拳打過來，你不該盯著他或試圖切入他的動作,當下應該關註的是自己的反應。清楚自己的反應就能利用這個反應生出自己的動作，就能發生前無古人的新招"。你能更深入的解釋嗎? 

VV:練習時全副精神放在對手身上意味著你想露一手本事讓人家知道你是個夠資格的指導員，愈這樣想作出來的愈欠缺威力。若你把註意力放回自己的內在，那麽你就能為彼此帶來正面的改變。

A: I understand. Not looking at the opponent but at yourself.

VV: Trying to assist somebody in training can indicate your ego. People who can't help themselves cannot assist other people. Whereas, if you can work on yourself while helping other people, you are the master. The more you practice this type of training, the more you will know what I mean.

A： 我明白了，專註自身別老想著對手就對了。

VV： 在練習時（以強者之姿）協助別人你會顯得有些“傲慢”（ego). 沒辦法自我提升的人也幫不了旁人，相對的，在提升自己同時也能幫助旁人提升就是師傅級的了。愈使用這種態度來訓練，你會更明白我的意思。 

-Thank you very much for the time you've given us today.

VV: Thank you.

謝謝您接受我們的訪問。

VV:謝謝 。